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	<title>Comments on: Extent of Inbreeding in Purebreds Revealed</title>
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		<title>By: Cookie TN</title>
		<link>http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/08/16/extent-of-inbreeding-in-purebreds-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-444145</link>
		<dc:creator>Cookie TN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 00:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dogblog.dogster.com/?p=6521#comment-444145</guid>
		<description>P.P.P.P.S.
Arg, another post from me because I forgot to mention something.
There are very few truly reputable breeders in this day and age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.P.P.P.S.<br />
Arg, another post from me because I forgot to mention something.<br />
There are very few truly reputable breeders in this day and age.</p>
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		<title>By: Cookie TN</title>
		<link>http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/08/16/extent-of-inbreeding-in-purebreds-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-444068</link>
		<dc:creator>Cookie TN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 00:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dogblog.dogster.com/?p=6521#comment-444068</guid>
		<description>P.P.P.S.
I need to start reviewing my posts so I won&#039;t have to keep making different posts.
Earlier I said:
&quot;No, it’s done partly and indirectly to supply people with dogs that fit their lifestyle. Different breeds fit different people. No one breed works for everyone. I’m always telling people looking for advice on what breed to choose to never choose a dog based on looks, because that can lead to disaster. For example, say that I chose a Border Collie because I like their looks but after buying one I found that I couldn’t handle their shy high energy, exercise needs, and/or grooming needs.&quot;
I just wanted to add that the other part of breeding IS to keep the breeds healthy.
Also, the way to keep the dog breeds where people can find the best breed for them is to try to keep the dogs according to standard as possible. The standard is NOT perfect, but it is something to breed to. Without a standard, the breed&#039;s looks would start to vary more and more and after a while it would be hard to identify one breed from another, not to mention it would be much harder for people to find the best breed for them.
That&#039;s all I have to say for now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.P.P.S.<br />
I need to start reviewing my posts so I won&#8217;t have to keep making different posts.<br />
Earlier I said:<br />
&#8220;No, it’s done partly and indirectly to supply people with dogs that fit their lifestyle. Different breeds fit different people. No one breed works for everyone. I’m always telling people looking for advice on what breed to choose to never choose a dog based on looks, because that can lead to disaster. For example, say that I chose a Border Collie because I like their looks but after buying one I found that I couldn’t handle their shy high energy, exercise needs, and/or grooming needs.&#8221;<br />
I just wanted to add that the other part of breeding IS to keep the breeds healthy.<br />
Also, the way to keep the dog breeds where people can find the best breed for them is to try to keep the dogs according to standard as possible. The standard is NOT perfect, but it is something to breed to. Without a standard, the breed&#8217;s looks would start to vary more and more and after a while it would be hard to identify one breed from another, not to mention it would be much harder for people to find the best breed for them.<br />
That&#8217;s all I have to say for now.</p>
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		<title>By: Cookie TN</title>
		<link>http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/08/16/extent-of-inbreeding-in-purebreds-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-444058</link>
		<dc:creator>Cookie TN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 23:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dogblog.dogster.com/?p=6521#comment-444058</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Even worse, most breeders believe that genetic testing can help cull diseased dogs from the population. “DNA tests now exist for many single-gene diseases, and the near future will see an avalanche of such tests, and perhaps some for polygenic diseases” (Coile, Ph.D. 20). Removing dogs from the gene pool only increases inbreeding (Coppinger et al. 316).&lt;/i&gt;
Genetic testing is important. However, it is true that &quot;Removing dogs from the gene pool only increases inbreeding &quot;. That is why some breeds may have to have people breed them even if they don&#039;t pass certain genetic tests. I think that there is a balance. I think that in SOME cases, inbreeding can be helpful if you really know what you are doing. Linebreeding, as I stated earlier, is helpful and IMO better than outright inbreeding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Even worse, most breeders believe that genetic testing can help cull diseased dogs from the population. “DNA tests now exist for many single-gene diseases, and the near future will see an avalanche of such tests, and perhaps some for polygenic diseases” (Coile, Ph.D. 20). Removing dogs from the gene pool only increases inbreeding (Coppinger et al. 316).</i><br />
Genetic testing is important. However, it is true that &#8220;Removing dogs from the gene pool only increases inbreeding &#8220;. That is why some breeds may have to have people breed them even if they don&#8217;t pass certain genetic tests. I think that there is a balance. I think that in SOME cases, inbreeding can be helpful if you really know what you are doing. Linebreeding, as I stated earlier, is helpful and IMO better than outright inbreeding.</p>
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		<title>By: Cookie TN</title>
		<link>http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/08/16/extent-of-inbreeding-in-purebreds-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-444049</link>
		<dc:creator>Cookie TN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 23:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dogblog.dogster.com/?p=6521#comment-444049</guid>
		<description>P.S.
&lt;i&gt;Breeding is not ever done for the health of the dogs; it’s done to appeal to different people’s visual tastes.&lt;/i&gt;

No, it&#039;s done partly and indirectly to supply people with dogs that fit their lifestyle. Different breeds fit different people. No one breed works for everyone. I&#039;m always telling people looking for advice on what breed to choose to never choose a dog based on looks, because that can lead to disaster. For example, say that I chose a Border Collie because I like their looks but after buying one I found that I couldn&#039;t handle their shy high energy, exercise needs, and/or grooming needs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S.<br />
<i>Breeding is not ever done for the health of the dogs; it’s done to appeal to different people’s visual tastes.</i></p>
<p>No, it&#8217;s done partly and indirectly to supply people with dogs that fit their lifestyle. Different breeds fit different people. No one breed works for everyone. I&#8217;m always telling people looking for advice on what breed to choose to never choose a dog based on looks, because that can lead to disaster. For example, say that I chose a Border Collie because I like their looks but after buying one I found that I couldn&#8217;t handle their shy high energy, exercise needs, and/or grooming needs.</p>
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		<title>By: Cookie TN</title>
		<link>http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/08/16/extent-of-inbreeding-in-purebreds-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-444040</link>
		<dc:creator>Cookie TN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 23:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dogblog.dogster.com/?p=6521#comment-444040</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I also disagree with the popular statement: “We need to support good, responsible breeders!” Breeding is not ever done for the health of the dogs; it’s done to appeal to different people’s visual tastes. Inbreeding must occur with every breeding kennel, even with the so-called ‘responsible’ breeders. When it gets right down to it, purebreeding really started in the Victorian Era as a visible indicator of social status, and that’s still what it is.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m disagreeing with that. Why? I&#039;m a breeder-in-training and the one and only reason I even want to breed is to keep the dog breeds (in my case, Collies and Shelties) healthy.
I have my website:
cookiemiller.tripod.com

Line-breeding, a form of inbreeding, can be very helpful, but should ONLY be done bu someone who is knowledgeable in genetics and who is experience in breeding dogs.
IMO, the way to stop this train wreck, is to discourage irresponsible breeders with all of our capacity and to encourage responsible ones who do the proper health testing, evaluating and what the dog was bred for.
Disagree with that as much as you wish, that&#039;s my personal opinion and I&#039;m open-minded, but slow to change my opinions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I also disagree with the popular statement: “We need to support good, responsible breeders!” Breeding is not ever done for the health of the dogs; it’s done to appeal to different people’s visual tastes. Inbreeding must occur with every breeding kennel, even with the so-called ‘responsible’ breeders. When it gets right down to it, purebreeding really started in the Victorian Era as a visible indicator of social status, and that’s still what it is.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m disagreeing with that. Why? I&#8217;m a breeder-in-training and the one and only reason I even want to breed is to keep the dog breeds (in my case, Collies and Shelties) healthy.<br />
I have my website:<br />
cookiemiller.tripod.com</p>
<p>Line-breeding, a form of inbreeding, can be very helpful, but should ONLY be done bu someone who is knowledgeable in genetics and who is experience in breeding dogs.<br />
IMO, the way to stop this train wreck, is to discourage irresponsible breeders with all of our capacity and to encourage responsible ones who do the proper health testing, evaluating and what the dog was bred for.<br />
Disagree with that as much as you wish, that&#8217;s my personal opinion and I&#8217;m open-minded, but slow to change my opinions.</p>
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		<title>By: haika</title>
		<link>http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/08/16/extent-of-inbreeding-in-purebreds-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-443930</link>
		<dc:creator>haika</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:50:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dogblog.dogster.com/?p=6521#comment-443930</guid>
		<description>Katie:
   I&#039;[m trying to understand what you are suggesting. At appears that you do not support genetic screening since the results can be used to remove a dog from the gene pool and hence reduce the gene pool. Wouldn&#039;t retention and breeding of the dogs that either carry the trait or exhibit the trait lead to an INCREASE in the disease statistics?  I&#039;m not sure what your goal is here. 
   I think it&#039;s very important to consider the relative genetic health of breeds that have been around for many many thousands of years (the ancient breeds), e.g. saluki, samoyed, Siberian husky, basenji,  etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Katie:<br />
   I&#8217;[m trying to understand what you are suggesting. At appears that you do not support genetic screening since the results can be used to remove a dog from the gene pool and hence reduce the gene pool. Wouldn&#8217;t retention and breeding of the dogs that either carry the trait or exhibit the trait lead to an INCREASE in the disease statistics?  I&#8217;m not sure what your goal is here.<br />
   I think it&#8217;s very important to consider the relative genetic health of breeds that have been around for many many thousands of years (the ancient breeds), e.g. saluki, samoyed, Siberian husky, basenji,  etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Katie</title>
		<link>http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/08/16/extent-of-inbreeding-in-purebreds-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-443865</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:10:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dogblog.dogster.com/?p=6521#comment-443865</guid>
		<description>Sorry, the above comment came out wrong. Blech. Let me try the quote again (because that wasn&#039;t it):

Modern-day breeding began in the early twentieth century.  Breed standards were written and studbooks were closed “for purity’s sake.” (Budiansky 220).  The idea is almost to change each breed into a separate species.  However, closing studbooks is much like dropping the guillotine on a group of dogs.  Inbreeding has to occur if the breed is to survive to the next generation.  Depending on the number of founding dogs, inbreeding may be delayed for a few years.  “If I created a breed of dogs in 1900 (that is, closed the stud book) with five hundred males, [by 2000] that breed would have been inbreeding for eighty-five years.”  This is a recipe for genetic diseases and general poor health (Coppinger et al. 316).  Every recognized breed with a closed studbook has a list of diseases and health problems that go with it.  “It is all rather like reading an account of the royal families of Europe after everyone had spent a few hundred years marrying their first cousins” (Budiansky 216).  Even worse, most breeders believe that genetic testing can help cull diseased dogs from the population.  “DNA tests now exist for many single-gene diseases, and the near future will see an avalanche of such tests, and perhaps some for polygenic diseases” (Coile, Ph.D. 20).  Removing dogs from the gene pool only increases inbreeding (Coppinger et al. 316).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, the above comment came out wrong. Blech. Let me try the quote again (because that wasn&#8217;t it):</p>
<p>Modern-day breeding began in the early twentieth century.  Breed standards were written and studbooks were closed “for purity’s sake.” (Budiansky 220).  The idea is almost to change each breed into a separate species.  However, closing studbooks is much like dropping the guillotine on a group of dogs.  Inbreeding has to occur if the breed is to survive to the next generation.  Depending on the number of founding dogs, inbreeding may be delayed for a few years.  “If I created a breed of dogs in 1900 (that is, closed the stud book) with five hundred males, [by 2000] that breed would have been inbreeding for eighty-five years.”  This is a recipe for genetic diseases and general poor health (Coppinger et al. 316).  Every recognized breed with a closed studbook has a list of diseases and health problems that go with it.  “It is all rather like reading an account of the royal families of Europe after everyone had spent a few hundred years marrying their first cousins” (Budiansky 216).  Even worse, most breeders believe that genetic testing can help cull diseased dogs from the population.  “DNA tests now exist for many single-gene diseases, and the near future will see an avalanche of such tests, and perhaps some for polygenic diseases” (Coile, Ph.D. 20).  Removing dogs from the gene pool only increases inbreeding (Coppinger et al. 316).</p>
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		<title>By: Katie</title>
		<link>http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/08/16/extent-of-inbreeding-in-purebreds-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-443862</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dogblog.dogster.com/?p=6521#comment-443862</guid>
		<description>I read a great book about this recently: &lt;i&gt;Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior &amp; Evolution&lt;/i&gt; by Raymond &amp; Lorna Coppinger.  It also debunks the popular legend that wolves are the ancestors of dogs.

I wrote a paper about dog breeding, and here&#039;s the paragraph about dog breeding:

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;Modern-day breeding began in the early twentieth century.  Breed standards were written and studbooks were closed “for purity’s sake.” (Budiansky 220).  The idea is almost to change each breed into a separate species.  However, closing studbooks is much like dropping the guillotine on a group of dogs.  Inbreeding has to occur if the breed is to survive to the next generation.  Depending on the number of founding dogs, inbreeding may be delayed for a few years.  “If I created a breed of dogs in 1900 (that is, closed the stud book) with five hundred males, [by 2000] that breed would have been inbreeding for eighty-five years.”  This is a recipe for genetic diseases and general poor health (Coppinger et al. 316).  Every recognized breed with a closed studbook has a list of diseases and health problems that go with it.  “It is all rather like reading an account of the royal families of Europe after everyone had spent a few hundred years marrying their first cousins” (Budiansky 216).  Even worse, most breeders believe that genetic testing can help cull diseased dogs from the population.  “DNA tests now exist for many single-gene diseases, and the near future will see an avalanche of such tests, and perhaps some for polygenic diseases” (Coile, Ph.D. 20).  Removing dogs from the gene pool only increases inbreeding (Coppinger et al. 316).&quot;&gt;

I also disagree with the popular statement: &quot;We need to support good, responsible breeders!&quot;  Breeding is not ever done for the health of the dogs; it&#039;s done to appeal to different people&#039;s visual tastes.  Inbreeding must occur with every breeding kennel, even with the so-called &#039;responsible&#039; breeders.  When it gets right down to it, purebreeding really started in the Victorian Era as a visible indicator of social status, and that&#039;s still what it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read a great book about this recently: <i>Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior &amp; Evolution</i> by Raymond &amp; Lorna Coppinger.  It also debunks the popular legend that wolves are the ancestors of dogs.</p>
<p>I wrote a paper about dog breeding, and here&#8217;s the paragraph about dog breeding:</p>
<blockquote cite="Modern-day breeding began in the early twentieth century.  Breed standards were written and studbooks were closed “for purity’s sake.” (Budiansky 220).  The idea is almost to change each breed into a separate species.  However, closing studbooks is much like dropping the guillotine on a group of dogs.  Inbreeding has to occur if the breed is to survive to the next generation.  Depending on the number of founding dogs, inbreeding may be delayed for a few years.  “If I created a breed of dogs in 1900 (that is, closed the stud book) with five hundred males, [by 2000] that breed would have been inbreeding for eighty-five years.”  This is a recipe for genetic diseases and general poor health (Coppinger et al. 316).  Every recognized breed with a closed studbook has a list of diseases and health problems that go with it.  “It is all rather like reading an account of the royal families of Europe after everyone had spent a few hundred years marrying their first cousins” (Budiansky 216).  Even worse, most breeders believe that genetic testing can help cull diseased dogs from the population.  “DNA tests now exist for many single-gene diseases, and the near future will see an avalanche of such tests, and perhaps some for polygenic diseases” (Coile, Ph.D. 20).  Removing dogs from the gene pool only increases inbreeding (Coppinger et al. 316).">
<p>I also disagree with the popular statement: &#8220;We need to support good, responsible breeders!&#8221;  Breeding is not ever done for the health of the dogs; it&#8217;s done to appeal to different people&#8217;s visual tastes.  Inbreeding must occur with every breeding kennel, even with the so-called &#8216;responsible&#8217; breeders.  When it gets right down to it, purebreeding really started in the Victorian Era as a visible indicator of social status, and that&#8217;s still what it is.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: haika</title>
		<link>http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/08/16/extent-of-inbreeding-in-purebreds-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-443856</link>
		<dc:creator>haika</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dogblog.dogster.com/?p=6521#comment-443856</guid>
		<description>Thank you. I have to say that I feel this is an overgeneralized approach to canine genetic inheritance and appears to be based on broad assumptions with little direct data. I&#039;m curious why the ancient purebreds aren&#039;t discussed here, i.e. those breeds that go back 20,000 or more years.  Although I do need to read the entire paper, it appears that all purebreds are lumped into one &#039;dangerous breeding practices&#039; category and I do not think that is useful. I&#039;d LOVE to read the peer-review comments on this paper. However, I am unfamiliar with how robust the review process IS for this journal. It&#039;s outside my direct field and I have not published in this journal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you. I have to say that I feel this is an overgeneralized approach to canine genetic inheritance and appears to be based on broad assumptions with little direct data. I&#8217;m curious why the ancient purebreds aren&#8217;t discussed here, i.e. those breeds that go back 20,000 or more years.  Although I do need to read the entire paper, it appears that all purebreds are lumped into one &#8216;dangerous breeding practices&#8217; category and I do not think that is useful. I&#8217;d LOVE to read the peer-review comments on this paper. However, I am unfamiliar with how robust the review process IS for this journal. It&#8217;s outside my direct field and I have not published in this journal.</p>
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		<title>By: icr</title>
		<link>http://dogblog.dogster.com/2008/08/16/extent-of-inbreeding-in-purebreds-revealed/comment-page-1/#comment-443755</link>
		<dc:creator>icr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dogblog.dogster.com/?p=6521#comment-443755</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I’d like to read the peer-reviewed paper you refer to when mentioning that all dog lines carry negative recessives&lt;/i&gt;

Here&#039;s one: 
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&amp;pubmedid=17966340
(...)
&lt;i&gt;. Heterozygosity is an important occurrence for species’ fortitude and survival (1). The Hardy-Weinberg Principle describes how a natural balance, in most species, maintains a high degree of genotypic heterozygosity in order to preserve genetic fitness and, hence, species’ health (2,4,18,19). High rates of homozygosity can occur in nature due to “bottleneck situations,” such as a limited gene pool in island populations, but in canines, homozygosity is deliberately accomplished by people trying to achieve specific breed standards. Many desired breed traits are recessive, rather than dominant, and require that both copies of the inherited alleles be the same for the trait to be expressed phenotypically. Individuals selected for consistent expression of alleles specific to desired physical traits results in offspring that are homozygous.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;Breed purity and genotypic homozygosity is harmful to canine health because it requires inbreeding and results in an abnormally high occurrence of inherited diseases. Unfortunately, when breeders selectively “double up” on desired traits for physical conformation, they also double up on genes that can result in decreased fitness and increased disease. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;b&gt;All individuals carry deleterious genes, but they are usually inherited in a heterozygous state and, therefore, not expressed. Because these genes are ordinarily recessive, there is no detrimental impact on health (4)&lt;/b&gt;. &lt;i&gt; In effect, a heterozygous state frequently confers a selective advantage by creating a larger store of genetic variability. Deleterious alleles are still present in heterozygous populations; however, when infrequent homozygosity of these genes occurs naturally, the individuals are eliminated through natural selection, due to their inferior fitness. The existence of deleterious alleles in a population, therefore, does not affect a species’ overall fitness (3).&lt;/i&gt;
(....)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I’d like to read the peer-reviewed paper you refer to when mentioning that all dog lines carry negative recessives</i></p>
<p>Here&#8217;s one:<br />
<a href="http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&amp;pubmedid=17966340" rel="nofollow">http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&amp;pubmedid=17966340</a><br />
(&#8230;)<br />
<i>. Heterozygosity is an important occurrence for species’ fortitude and survival (1). The Hardy-Weinberg Principle describes how a natural balance, in most species, maintains a high degree of genotypic heterozygosity in order to preserve genetic fitness and, hence, species’ health (2,4,18,19). High rates of homozygosity can occur in nature due to “bottleneck situations,” such as a limited gene pool in island populations, but in canines, homozygosity is deliberately accomplished by people trying to achieve specific breed standards. Many desired breed traits are recessive, rather than dominant, and require that both copies of the inherited alleles be the same for the trait to be expressed phenotypically. Individuals selected for consistent expression of alleles specific to desired physical traits results in offspring that are homozygous.</i></p>
<p><i>Breed purity and genotypic homozygosity is harmful to canine health because it requires inbreeding and results in an abnormally high occurrence of inherited diseases. Unfortunately, when breeders selectively “double up” on desired traits for physical conformation, they also double up on genes that can result in decreased fitness and increased disease. </i><b>All individuals carry deleterious genes, but they are usually inherited in a heterozygous state and, therefore, not expressed. Because these genes are ordinarily recessive, there is no detrimental impact on health (4)</b>. <i> In effect, a heterozygous state frequently confers a selective advantage by creating a larger store of genetic variability. Deleterious alleles are still present in heterozygous populations; however, when infrequent homozygosity of these genes occurs naturally, the individuals are eliminated through natural selection, due to their inferior fitness. The existence of deleterious alleles in a population, therefore, does not affect a species’ overall fitness (3).</i><br />
(&#8230;.)</p>
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